Both Bob's commentary and Michelle Goldberg's column in the NYT today hit the nail on the head. Maybe I am being too cynical, but I think it is plausible that Netanyahu's government deliberately ignored Hamas' preparation for an attack, hoping to further its plans to exile the Palestinians in Gaza, and settle the territory with Israelis. If so, Hamas played its role to perfection., and the United States is being played once again (as in Iraq, for example) by politicians seeking to use our military resources, overconfidence, and aggressive foreign policy for their own ends.
Wright's overly alarmist notes about Israel are getting tiresome. He quotes from the most extremist views of the nuts in Netanyahu's cabinet as if they have any chance of becoming official policy. WRight is a card carrying member of the anti-zionist pro-palestinian left wing.
The quotes are from influential top ministers. The reported Congo talks suggest official policy is moving in the direction of their views. Less powerful Knesset members also said unhinged things but weren't quoted in today's newsletter.
He links articles that reference what the Israeli government ministers have said, the reports they wrote, etc. It may not be official policy but the high civilian death toll and the expected situation on the ground once this is over as well as the Netanyahu govt's aims all sadly point in that direction. For people who love Israel, these are sad times, but let's also not identify the entire nation with the actions of its Government and military.
Netanyahu himself has supported this position. You’re trying to argue that the PM and his closest allies in his own cabinet are an irrelevant fringe lol? They are literally the government, this is the Israeli establishment position. Why don’t you just save us all some time and skip to the part where you argue that actually ethnic cleansing here is fine, it’s what you’re going to be saying in 6 months anyway.
Getting seriously tired of constant Israel bashing without any attempt to acknowledge the history on both sides. Israel has been between a rock and a hard place since 1947. Why is Israel the only country in the world whose right to exist is constantly questioned. Why does no one wring their hands about Syria, Iran, Iraq, Russia, Turkey, Lebanon, Sudan, etc the list goes on and on of regimes who actually commit war crimes, genocide and ethnic cleansing. Only Israel is taken to task for defending itself, for trying to figure out what to do when surrounded by terrorists whose charter and sole purpose is islamic jihad, to wipe out Israel. While I don't often agree with Netanyahu government, brainstorming on what happens after Gaza is appropriate. Why not ask regular Gazans? I bet they would rather live in Egypt or Jordan rather than as human shields for murderous hamas...on top of the tunnels, rockets, weapons etc. Unfortunately for years since 2007 hamas murderous takeover of gaza ridding the strip of PA Fatah, Egypt closed her border with hamas due to terrorism. Even now they won't let Gazans into Egypt because they don't know if they are letting in terrorists... Same with Jordan who refuse humanitarian refugees into Jordan.... Why don't you tell the whole story Robert?? SHAME ON YOU ROBERT WRIGHT!!!
Almost no one questions Israel’s right to exist; many question its right to be an ethno-state. If anything is exceptional about Israel, it’s that so many people who would criticize having an official religion or making citizenship about ethnicity in any other country make an exception for Israel.
Nor is Israel surrounded by terrorists or enemies. When you’re using a talking point that stopped making sense in the 70s maybe you should reconsider your position.
And the reason Egypt and Jordan won’t let them is because they know - and you know, and every supporter of Israel knows, even if they deny it - that once the Palestinians leave their territory, Israel won’t let them back in.
I am disappointed but not surprised that you fail to mention South Africa's application to the International Court of Justice. Here is a link, for the Zionist apologists: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192
In the interest of minimizing cognitive bias and yata yata, maybe don't select the image of Netanyahu that makes him look the most like a James Bond villain getting ready to drop his butler who steeped his tea at 200° instead of 185° into a shark tank.*
It's a staple of news outlets to select more and less flattering images according to their biases.
*I don't like the guy either, that's the whole point.
Apropos AI… most all new tech platforms require a “killer app” to get off the launchpad - ie., something that generates vast amounts of traffic/revenue (think pornography for the early Internet). For AI that is likely to play into the hands of advertisers, where a jump on the competition based on large language modeling could bring in millions of clicks. Faking a novel - not so much…
They already do that, of course, but more and faster cloud data centers will ratchet it up (and make going online even more unpleasant than it is).
Roughly 3 million Palestinians live on the West Bank, 92% of them are Muslim. The population of Israel is about 9.4 million, so 32% roughly of Israel's population lives under martial law on the West Bank. Population of Gaza was around 2 million before the war. Palestinians live on the West Bank under martial law, under which they can be killed without meaningful recourse to the courts, and without access to developed roads or free movement. If you are not aware of that, I question your knowledge of the situation there. If you don't care, which your comments suggest, I think you are the one who is pushing a dishonest narrative.
So if the US expelled all Jews from the state of New York and shipped them to Madagascar, it wouldn’t be ethnic cleansing, because they’re only removing them from a part of the country?
You’re not getting it. The key word is, ALL. Even if Israel removed all Palestinians now in Gaza somewhere else, nearly 20% of Israel is Muslim with the majority of that being Palestinians who are citizens of Israel. So NO, the land will not be ethically cleansed of Palestinians. It will be cleansed of a society, which is extremely violent, a government, that professes extermination of all Jews (over 30% population radically support), and a society that does not support Western values.
Why is ‘all’ the key word? ‘All’ in this piece is only used to refer to all the civilians in Gaza, which is precisely what the Israeli document cited recommends.
This is absurd logic in any case. An act of genocide wouldn’t cease to be an act of genocide because some members of the targeted group are exempt.
I’ll add that last time a pollster asked Israeli Jews (in 2016) a plurality - just under half, and a majority of those with an opinion - supported expelling Arabs from Israel, including citizens (I’d be surprised if it isn’t a solid majority today). By your logic, it’d be justified to expel Jews from Israel given how widespread fascistic and violently intolerant views are among that demographic, if you’re committed to the idea of using polls to classify demographic groups as unpersons.
What is the answer to creating peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians?
I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume you have a better than average understanding of the history of the conflict.
I personally don’t think there is a way. Neither side politically wants it. The current US administration is afraid to make hard decisions.
I have been to war and have had many discussions with people in the Middle East. Most people don’t understand what it’s like to be at war for years let alone for decades. Nor do we know what it’s like to have such unmitigated hatred focused upon you and your people. I have, I’ve spoken to people who believe they are truly following God’s will. They believe God wants me, you and the western world wiped from history. Hamas, Hasbulla, and the Iranian Quds Force all believe that.
If you have read the Quran or parts of it you would know Islam is not a religion of peace.
So please tell me how do you fight God and make peace.
“What is the answer to creating peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians?”
The creation of an independent Palestinian state. That is a *precondition* to lasting peace, not a reward for it promised in the distant future if some vague conditions are met. Creation of a state is an early step. Only afterward can progress toward normalization of relations between Palestine and Israel gradually happen.
Apologies for the following not being related to this post at all, but I see the Parrot Room was finally deleted in Patreon. My hopes for its return are finally snuffed out
No, the Parrot Room is not coming back. (Sigh.) But, fwiw, the archives are available to paid NZN subscribers. And I'm scheduled to tape a podcast with Mickey late next week.
Both Bob's commentary and Michelle Goldberg's column in the NYT today hit the nail on the head. Maybe I am being too cynical, but I think it is plausible that Netanyahu's government deliberately ignored Hamas' preparation for an attack, hoping to further its plans to exile the Palestinians in Gaza, and settle the territory with Israelis. If so, Hamas played its role to perfection., and the United States is being played once again (as in Iraq, for example) by politicians seeking to use our military resources, overconfidence, and aggressive foreign policy for their own ends.
Some of the smartest people I know are adopting an accelerationist mindset of "the only way out is through." So it's plausible as hell.
Wright's overly alarmist notes about Israel are getting tiresome. He quotes from the most extremist views of the nuts in Netanyahu's cabinet as if they have any chance of becoming official policy. WRight is a card carrying member of the anti-zionist pro-palestinian left wing.
The quotes are from influential top ministers. The reported Congo talks suggest official policy is moving in the direction of their views. Less powerful Knesset members also said unhinged things but weren't quoted in today's newsletter.
He links articles that reference what the Israeli government ministers have said, the reports they wrote, etc. It may not be official policy but the high civilian death toll and the expected situation on the ground once this is over as well as the Netanyahu govt's aims all sadly point in that direction. For people who love Israel, these are sad times, but let's also not identify the entire nation with the actions of its Government and military.
Netanyahu himself has supported this position. You’re trying to argue that the PM and his closest allies in his own cabinet are an irrelevant fringe lol? They are literally the government, this is the Israeli establishment position. Why don’t you just save us all some time and skip to the part where you argue that actually ethnic cleansing here is fine, it’s what you’re going to be saying in 6 months anyway.
Getting seriously tired of constant Israel bashing without any attempt to acknowledge the history on both sides. Israel has been between a rock and a hard place since 1947. Why is Israel the only country in the world whose right to exist is constantly questioned. Why does no one wring their hands about Syria, Iran, Iraq, Russia, Turkey, Lebanon, Sudan, etc the list goes on and on of regimes who actually commit war crimes, genocide and ethnic cleansing. Only Israel is taken to task for defending itself, for trying to figure out what to do when surrounded by terrorists whose charter and sole purpose is islamic jihad, to wipe out Israel. While I don't often agree with Netanyahu government, brainstorming on what happens after Gaza is appropriate. Why not ask regular Gazans? I bet they would rather live in Egypt or Jordan rather than as human shields for murderous hamas...on top of the tunnels, rockets, weapons etc. Unfortunately for years since 2007 hamas murderous takeover of gaza ridding the strip of PA Fatah, Egypt closed her border with hamas due to terrorism. Even now they won't let Gazans into Egypt because they don't know if they are letting in terrorists... Same with Jordan who refuse humanitarian refugees into Jordan.... Why don't you tell the whole story Robert?? SHAME ON YOU ROBERT WRIGHT!!!
Almost no one questions Israel’s right to exist; many question its right to be an ethno-state. If anything is exceptional about Israel, it’s that so many people who would criticize having an official religion or making citizenship about ethnicity in any other country make an exception for Israel.
Nor is Israel surrounded by terrorists or enemies. When you’re using a talking point that stopped making sense in the 70s maybe you should reconsider your position.
And the reason Egypt and Jordan won’t let them is because they know - and you know, and every supporter of Israel knows, even if they deny it - that once the Palestinians leave their territory, Israel won’t let them back in.
The word you are looking for is genocide.
I am disappointed but not surprised that you fail to mention South Africa's application to the International Court of Justice. Here is a link, for the Zionist apologists: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192
In the interest of minimizing cognitive bias and yata yata, maybe don't select the image of Netanyahu that makes him look the most like a James Bond villain getting ready to drop his butler who steeped his tea at 200° instead of 185° into a shark tank.*
It's a staple of news outlets to select more and less flattering images according to their biases.
*I don't like the guy either, that's the whole point.
Why is it you never consider what might transpire if the Hamas government and military were to surrender?
Apropos AI… most all new tech platforms require a “killer app” to get off the launchpad - ie., something that generates vast amounts of traffic/revenue (think pornography for the early Internet). For AI that is likely to play into the hands of advertisers, where a jump on the competition based on large language modeling could bring in millions of clicks. Faking a novel - not so much…
They already do that, of course, but more and faster cloud data centers will ratchet it up (and make going online even more unpleasant than it is).
I did not know Israel was removing all Muslim and Palestinian Israeli citizens from Israel?!
Demographics of the citizens of Israel-
approximately 73.8 percent of the population is Jewish, 18 percent Muslim, 1.9 percent Christian, and 1.6 percent Druze.May 13, 2023
If they are not removing ALL Muslim and Palestinian Israeli citizens, then this title and premise is bunk!
Definitions of words mean something. Proper journalism means something. I have no patience for opinion garbage that pushes a narrative.
Roughly 3 million Palestinians live on the West Bank, 92% of them are Muslim. The population of Israel is about 9.4 million, so 32% roughly of Israel's population lives under martial law on the West Bank. Population of Gaza was around 2 million before the war. Palestinians live on the West Bank under martial law, under which they can be killed without meaningful recourse to the courts, and without access to developed roads or free movement. If you are not aware of that, I question your knowledge of the situation there. If you don't care, which your comments suggest, I think you are the one who is pushing a dishonest narrative.
So if the US expelled all Jews from the state of New York and shipped them to Madagascar, it wouldn’t be ethnic cleansing, because they’re only removing them from a part of the country?
You’re not getting it. The key word is, ALL. Even if Israel removed all Palestinians now in Gaza somewhere else, nearly 20% of Israel is Muslim with the majority of that being Palestinians who are citizens of Israel. So NO, the land will not be ethically cleansed of Palestinians. It will be cleansed of a society, which is extremely violent, a government, that professes extermination of all Jews (over 30% population radically support), and a society that does not support Western values.
Why is ‘all’ the key word? ‘All’ in this piece is only used to refer to all the civilians in Gaza, which is precisely what the Israeli document cited recommends.
This is absurd logic in any case. An act of genocide wouldn’t cease to be an act of genocide because some members of the targeted group are exempt.
I’ll add that last time a pollster asked Israeli Jews (in 2016) a plurality - just under half, and a majority of those with an opinion - supported expelling Arabs from Israel, including citizens (I’d be surprised if it isn’t a solid majority today). By your logic, it’d be justified to expel Jews from Israel given how widespread fascistic and violently intolerant views are among that demographic, if you’re committed to the idea of using polls to classify demographic groups as unpersons.
What is the answer to creating peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians?
I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume you have a better than average understanding of the history of the conflict.
I personally don’t think there is a way. Neither side politically wants it. The current US administration is afraid to make hard decisions.
I have been to war and have had many discussions with people in the Middle East. Most people don’t understand what it’s like to be at war for years let alone for decades. Nor do we know what it’s like to have such unmitigated hatred focused upon you and your people. I have, I’ve spoken to people who believe they are truly following God’s will. They believe God wants me, you and the western world wiped from history. Hamas, Hasbulla, and the Iranian Quds Force all believe that.
If you have read the Quran or parts of it you would know Islam is not a religion of peace.
So please tell me how do you fight God and make peace.
“What is the answer to creating peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians?”
The creation of an independent Palestinian state. That is a *precondition* to lasting peace, not a reward for it promised in the distant future if some vague conditions are met. Creation of a state is an early step. Only afterward can progress toward normalization of relations between Palestine and Israel gradually happen.
Apologies for the following not being related to this post at all, but I see the Parrot Room was finally deleted in Patreon. My hopes for its return are finally snuffed out
No, the Parrot Room is not coming back. (Sigh.) But, fwiw, the archives are available to paid NZN subscribers. And I'm scheduled to tape a podcast with Mickey late next week.